Big fan of the show. I’m not sure if this story is for the “small world” or “weird coincidence” file. I’m among the unfortunate ranks of the “business traveler”, so last week I’m making a commute from DCA to STL with a layover in ORD. I’m strolling between terminals listening to the podcast and just as David goes into his historical account of Butch O’Hare, I round the corner and find myself face to face with the new and elaborate “Butch and his F4F” display. I wandered around the display as I listened to David’s segment and it was like getting a guided tour. I almost missed my connection but it was worth it.

Anyway, I’m an Air Force vet (C-5s) and married into an airline family, so naturally I find the show interesting and entertaining. Keep up the great work! John Bugée, St. Louis MO

Once again I’m part way through the episode and have some comments on the first couple of stories:

1) IRS attack

So, has the inevitable hoo haa kicked in and politicians are getting up on their soap boxes to go on about how dangerous light aircraft are & why isn’t TSA doing anything about it.?

If so, I sure hope someone puts some perspective on this ‘cos tragic as it is, this guy with his light aircraft managed to kill ONE OTHER PERSON.

Timothy McVeigh, however, killed ONE HUNDRED & SIXTY EIGHT people with a rental truck (and injured over 400 more)

So please, folks, please – do ensure that ANYONE who gets up to go on about how “dangerous” light aircraft are is also asked to advise what they are doing about the far more dangerous Ryder trucks out there…

(or have the politicians & media developed selective/short-term memories and forgotten the feds in Oklahoma? )

2) Perhaps it’s no surprise that the two New York area airports are rated so poorly. How many movements do they have scheduled every day and how many of them can the airport possibly process? Of course the airport is going to be crowded, delayed and an unhappy place if you’re trying to squeeze more movements than the runways can handle.

Seems like aviation 101: don’t schedule more than the airport can handle.

What am I missing with this picture?

Keep it happening gang – loving the show as ever

But I’ll tell you, this hand gesture routine about the plane crashing is totally inappropriate! I’d like to think something like that would be grounds for termination, or at least severe disciplinary action. That’s really bad!

Max

Good afternoon, Geeks!,

As always, thank you for the podcast!

I’ve been traveling very frequently and as always I travel primarily on Northwest Airlines (okay, I’m trying to let go) I mean Delta and I’m normally very pleased with the service I receive from Delta, er Northwelta. The Kevin Smith incident on Southwest Airlines has brought the issue of overweight passengers (in this case an egocentric giant asshat who makes crappy movies) and the policies the airlines have in place for them. The general consensus on the airlines seems to be, if you cannot lower the center armrest then you need to buy 2 seats and this seems rather fair and most obese people seem to mind the rules and pay for a second seat. That’s all fine and dandy in the end.

HOWEVER, what about overweight flight attendants? 3 of my recent flights (Operated by…….Pinnacle….Dangerous, but that’s a whole other conversation) the flight attendant has been overweight and barely able to squeeze themselves up and down the regional jets they are assigned on (Lately the DTW/MBS route has been operated by a CRJ200 sometimes a DC9 is used). Being a frequent traveler, it puzzles me as to how airlines can have this issue. A flight attendant who cannot manage to move up and down the aisle without have to wedge themselves through, appears to me at least, as incompetent themselves to perform the required duties of them, LET ALONE ASSIST IN AN EMERGENCY.

So basically I am interested in knowing if it’s because of unions that these flight attendants, who maybe once were in shape, but now are not are able to hold their positions or what is going on here? Perhaps Delta and it’s codeshares, such as Pinnacle are not being monitored properly and what is the FAA ruling (if there is one) on this?

Lastly, I had a bit of a horror story to share with you guys. I was flying Saturday on a Pinnacle flight from DTW-MBS on a very full CRJ200. I was in ROW 12 of like 14 rows. So we taxi out to the runway after our (very large) flight attendant counted the pax about 10 times. We stop short of the runway and the f/a squeezes himself through to perform another check, this is odd. A pax across from me ask what the f/a is doing and why he is counting again. The f/a says the pilot says we’re overweight and may have to return and let some people off. THEN the f/a (Kenneth ******** – Memphis Based!) makes a hand gesture of a plane taking off (slants forearm/hand up and moves upward) then makes a hand/arm gesture of a plane crashing and says BOOM. I have NEVER EVER had a F/A JOKE about the plane crashing. One of the most bizarre moments EVER.

Okay, got off track there, but had to share that story. Thanks again for the podcast, it’s excellent! I hope Dan Webb can make it back soon! Also, let me know what you guys find out about the overweight f/a situation.

Best regards!

-Sean

Now, I’m no prude and I swear a lot myself, but there is a time and a place for it. Call me old fashioned, but I have trouble listening to the arguments of a person who drops the F word in “print” like Smith does. Give me facts and a logical argument and I listen. Inflate the emotional level with profanity and the person looses credibility in my mind. It’s just the way I am.

So I can’t even say I’ve heard both sides of this issue. It feels more like I’ve just heard half of one side.

Thanks for being a listener, Ben!

Max

Kevin’s point was that if the airline is going to not follow their own standards than anyone who is overweight should be concerned that they might arbitrarily be asked to either purchase an extra seat or in today’s world of high load factors, be asked off the airplane if a 2nd seat is not available.

I wonder how many times this type of event happens each and every day and it is only because Kevin Smith has so many twitter followers that this gets any attention. I’m surprised that you on the podcast were so supportive of the airline, without seeing the passenger’s point of view.

In the news regarding the fight over JAL, someone mentioned that “Delta is OK in Asia with their KAL in their alliance”. I believe there may be more problems with that partnership than may be apparent. It is my understanding that when DL first initiated this relationship in the 90’s, the first group of flight ops folks who went over for a look-see came back horrified. The problems included the “the captain is God” culture; language issues; flight time / duty time regs that were draconian by US standards; jail threats by mgmt toward the protesting pilots’ union (and actual jailing in at least one case); and the virtual refusal on the part of native F/Os to include ex-pat captains as part of the crew. As I recall, the final theory on KAL007 was that the captain mis-programmed the FMS, and the 2 F/Os were unwilling to point out his error. Apparently, this had not improved in the interim.

DL sent a senior pilot, an ex-Flight Ops manager, to serve in a similar position for KAL. We heard many stories, such as his speaking to a room full of captains on CRM and safety issues, only to find out later that none of his nodding, smiling audience understood conversational English. Eventually, DL pulled operational approval of KAL as a partner, and launched an effort aimed at remediating the most serious problems. Of course, the hubris implied by such an effort goes without saying. Eventually, KAL was officially pronounced as up to speed, and reinstated in SkyTeam.

Have 10 or so years made a difference? A close friend (early retired from DL) recently accepted a position as a 777 captain for KAL. After completing arduous training, he spent only a month on the line before resigning with no other job prospect. Without going into details and violating his confidence, this says volumes to me regarding any progress KAL may have made in addressing the safety challenges recognized years ago by DL.

Good show,

Kim

Just had a chance to listen to last week’s discussion regarding the demise of the much hated Large Aircraft Security Program. I believe it was Rob who opined that maybe the proposed program had simply grown too big for the TSA to handle, and perhaps that and the resulting uproar led to their bail out. Much as I long for such common sense to be displayed in those hallowed halls …. I don’t think so.

I attended the ATL roadshow for public comment. A larger hotel ballroom had to be arranged as hundreds of pilots crowded in to have their say. When I had to leave after 4 hours (and after putting in my 2 cents), they were not yet half way through the speakers’ list. My point here is that at no time did the panel of 8 or so public servants seemed the least non-plussed by the reaction they were getting. When one legitimate objection after another was raised, they simply stared impassively …. occasionally interjecting that they were here to listen, NOT to provide answers, no matter how pertinent the question. The most telling thing to come from the stage was in the introductions of the group. Introduced as the individuals who came up with this plan, it was startling to note that only one had any aviation background …. and that was as a military air traffic controller in his previous career.

I believe the well deserved demise of the LASP began when US Representative Bennie Thompson of Mississippi (Chair of Homeland Security) wrote a letter expressing his grave doubts regarding the effects of this program on general aviation in his state. A large number of his cohorts signed on. Now, we are all painfully aware that Homeland Security is not exactly subject to Congressional oversight …. but they do know where the money comes from. Next, when the new Secretary of Homeland Defense was confirmed and made her first address to department employees en mass, Secy. Napolitano made a clear reference to the LASP in telling her gathered staff that, “we clearly have some work to do on this aircraft security thing”. I don’t think she wanted to be the one who signed off a rule that would not let a pro golfer in his chartered Lear take his clubs along for the ride.

No, Rob …. I believe it was plain old fashioned political pressure that brought down the LASP …. though it would be wonderful to think someone up there in DC simply thought better of it …. or, even better yet …. listened to the citizens’ views on the subject.

Great show, guys.

Kim

N569JB visited Long Beach tonight and I took the attached photos with my cell phone which explains the poor quality. I hope to get her during the daytime soon.

Stephen

My LGB Blog – http://klgb.blogspot.com

Here is a cool (hot?) story I thought I would pass along:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-10452572-76.html

Keep up the great job — I appreciate everyone’s dedication and results!

Warm Regards,
Richard

1) For Kevin Smith: Love your movies, but grow the frak up, fat boy! Not very impressed at all with this behaviour.

I’ve got a blog post coming together on the subject ‘cos I think that overweight people (myself included) need to think long & hard about their situation. Either do something about it and lose a few kilos or pay the extra that your fat bits need to be accommodated in cars, aircraft, elevators, etc

2) Backscatter machines – oh my!

Apparently the UK are saying if you object to going through the machine, you don’t get on the plane. No option!

Hmmm – I can feel another blog post coming on

OK – back to the car to drive some more errands and listen to more of the show

Cheers,

Grant

regards,
sekhar

http://www.chrisrawlinson.com/2010/02/kulula-airlines-flying-101-livery/

Keep up the excellent work gentlemen (and Rob)!!! All the way from rainy England. Must go, the 747-8’s about the push back (I hope….)

Hi geeks,

Thanks for all the work you put into your show — I love it.

As an amateur photographer, I read “The Luminous Landscape” regularly. But there’s a recent post there that I think you might be interested in, about the difficulty in traveling from Toronto International Airport to the U.S. The article is at http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/outrage.shtml

Keep up the good work, and I hope to meet you when you next visit the Place Crazy Down Under folk in person.

Tim
(Melbourne, Australia)

This post was mentioned on Twitter by crankyflier: For those who missed aviation #jetpardy yesterday, it’s now online @aviationgeeks – http://bit.ly/9imTD6...

I am a aviation enthusiast (more towards the military side) and follow aviation news very closely. I would have gotten my PPL in 2001 but for 9/11. I had taken my check flight the week prior to 9/11 and was supposed to start the following week and then everything was grounded for a very long time. I used to live in Austin,TX for many years and until I finally left the US.

You are right about the differences in culture, in Asia everyone has to have a pat down even after the metal detector but it is not an unpleasant experience. Nobody barks orders at people who are waiting for checks and certainly they do not separate babies from their mothers traveling by themselves.

I travel often all over the world and have never found security personnel more onerous than then TSA. Unfortunately the TSA has done more harm to the reputation of the US in travelers eyes than anything else. I love many things in the US but it is so difficult to travel that I have had to curtail my visits.

I recently came across a video by a blogger (dont know if you saw it) and his run in with the TSA guys. The guy does provoke the TSA but the response was not very nice. If you want I can send you the link
.
You are correct about politeness being different by cultures but certain basic things do remain the same.

Passport: You are right and that is what I was trying to say about competence of the people.

Thanks for the response and keep up the good work.
sekhar

However, I think you make it clear that bad experiences with the TSA can, in fact, influence people’s decisions to travel!

The way I see it, the security and customs experience at the airport is the first impression that a foreign traveler has when visiting another country for the first time. It’s not too difficult to train employees to recognize that and try to act in a polite manner.

But I’d temper that with a few things:

First: The TSA has a job to do, and that’s their first priority. An effective screening won’t always be a pleasant experience.

Second: Standards of “politeness” vary by culture, as you’ve no doubt seen in your travels. I certainly have. And the U.S. is so large that you can consider it to contain different cultures inside it’s borders. So we need to recognize that when we travel.

The date mix-up happens more often than people might think. I’ve seen two international companies disagree over a contract until they realized that they were both reading the same date differently. A lot of people in the U.S. have never seen DD-MM-YY. But yes, you would think someone trained to examine passports would understand the format.

Thanks again for your feedback, Sekhar!

Max

Hi Guys

Attached is my file which shows the earnings of different airlines over 2009 and 2008. I hope you can use it in a future podcast. Also was the Jetpardy live stream saved as an audio file that can be downloaded? I was not able to make the show and would love to be able to listen to it driving to work. Thanks

Stephen

My LGB Blog – http://klgb.blogspot.com

Max

The Skippy Scage website @ skippyscage.com/ has great photos! Thanks for telling your listeners about your site especially me.

Adam
MY Aviation Site: http://aviationnewsexpertadambadger.blogspot.com/

[and]

Hello the Airplane Geeks this is Adam from Davenport, Iowa again and I am suggesting that you get Bernay (woman who does the Geeks01 at the end of podcast) back on the podcast sometime live in 2010.

Adam

The security people are rude and disrespectful to passengers and there is no excuse for that. It does not cost money to smile (be respectful) and do a good job. In fact money has nothing to do with it at all.
However, I must also mention the times I have had a good experience at the security too, there are people (specially older screeners) who are much better and do a good job. But these are in the minority.
We go through the same levels of security in Asia and the EU and they never ever make anyone feel bad for being there.

I am sure that if security gets any worse the US airlines will be in a boat load of doo doo as passengers will refuse to travel unless it is absolutely necessary.

sekhar

I own blog about Aviation and am trying to promote it and increase my ranking with Google.
Thought it would be beneficial to both of us if we could exchange links on our blogrolls. You will be getting links to your sites in return.
If you agree, please add http://myaviationtutor.com with the tag “My Aviation Tutor” on your blogroll.
Let me know once the link is added, I will add a link to your site on our blogroll within 24 hours.

Sorry to write here but your contact page doesnt work

Regards
Alfred M
http://myaviationtutor.com

This post was mentioned on Twitter by MaxFlight: Online Sunday evening on Aviation “Jetpardy” @hharteveldt @crankyflier @nycaviation vie for top honors: http://bit.ly/aaSqhi...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMNIN-NlBbw

This is a serious simulation for the PC.

I really enjoyed the conversation with Allen Howell. I have seen CFM’s very busy operation at MQY when taking aircraft in for avionics service at Carpenter Avionics …. one of the great small, family owned shops that used to be easy to find in general aviation, but not any longer. It was especially interesting to hear Allen discuss the pooling of 135 empty legs through such software as that Ed Iaccobucci developed for Dayjet. I understand it was very sophisticated. On a far simpler level, one of my employers has advertised its empty legs on its own website …. and been called on the carpet by the FSDO. The feds’ position was that by listing empty legs available for charter, the 135 company was holding itself out to be a scheduled carrier ala Part 121. Go figure. Its done all over the country as far as I know.

I think it was Rob who mentioned the possibility of the TSA fitting their bag scanners with sizers to keep carry-on under control. The only time I have seen such was pre 9-11 in only one section of security at IAD. Each scanner belt was fixed with an aluminum template that limited anything on the belt to the prescribed size. Crews thought it was great. Continental Airlines sued on the basis that the template, being used only in a security area that primarily served its passengers, was putting it at a competitive disadvantage. I haven’t seen such templates since. In the late 90’s, Delta went to the expense of having carry-on sizers built and placed at every gate: “If it doesn’t fit in here, you must check it”. Passenger either hated it or ignored it. Delta gave up, of course.

Now, with all the extra fees that you guys discussed, I read where my former employer is #1 in such income. Approximately $26 million in the past year. With numbers like that, you know these fees are never going away.

Oh …. Allen speculated on what annual usage the airlines probably got out their aircraft, in comparison to average utilization of a typical business jet. When I retired the figure was an average daily utilization of over 11:00 on the 767ERs I flew across the North Atlantic. I imagine it was a little lower …. but not by much …. on aircraft used exclusively in the domestic operation: probably in the 9 – 10 hour range.

Everyone one is talking about how little fuel there is. I am aware that the Airfield had only two Fuel Bowsers on the field at the time of the quake. One of the procedures implemented by U.S.A.F. was you need to be able to get out in order to land. Which is why the high diversion rate, too many aircraft are burning to much avgas getting there and waiting, so if they landed they wouldn’t be able to get out. I believe that procedure is easing.

With the arrival of the Amphibious Assault Group lead by USS Battaan off the Coast, The Marines should be able to improve the fuel infrastructure. They have two systems in the group one is the Tactical Airfield Fuel System (TAFS )and The Amphibious Assault Fuel System( AAFS). They will continue to fly in Fuel Blivets large balloons full of Avgas, from the USS Carl Vinson and the Bataan. Also the Bataan with the AAFS can actually pump fuel via hose from Ship to Shore.

Most Special Operation C-130’s have 1,800 Lbs palletted fuel drums than can be removed and used as tanks. Helo’s can also be ground fuelled from the 130s also.

Hope this makes some sort of sense.

Check out: http://blog.usni.org/2010/01/20/haiti-how-to-fuel-disaster-recovery/

Interestingly enough, all the fees that the airlines are currently enjoying serve to move the marketplace back away from perfect knowledge. Customers don’t exactly know in advance what the total price is. (OK, they could know if they work at it, but the effort involved serves as a deterrent.)

But I maintain this is only temporary because the technology will return us to perfect knowledge. Then it won’t matter if the total price includes fees or not.

Max

Good afternoon guys. I’m finally getting on schedule with your podcast and listening while winging south in a beautiful 757, using the onboard Wi-fi. (No, I’m not a spendthrift …. there are promotional access codes floating around the internet.) My seat is away as possible from the one I used in past years …. window / last row / f/o’s side as I head to MCO for a quick Part 135 instrument proficiency check in the Citation sim.

On the subject of the ever popular security lanes: I find myself in full support of the full body scanner. For an old guy like me with a steel hip, the full body scan is a 2 minute substitute for the much longer wand & pat down routine. It saves me a lot of time, but there are not many around. To address a question Rob raised, there are two floor plans out there: one in which the scanner is in its own lane, with no prior metal detector and one in which the scanner is just beyond the metal detector. In the latter case, they essentially ignore the beep because I’m heading into the scanner, which will resolve the issue to their satisfaction. As for European attitudes toward security, I find it very ironic that European airports do not require the removal of shoes …. since it was at a European airport that the shoe bomber originated. After finishing my pat down in DUB recently, I looked around in vain for a place to sit while re-shoeing. It became clear why there was no such place when I realized, much to my wife’s amusement, that I was the only one who had de-shoed in the first place.

On Chris Elliott’s comment that the passenger will put up with anything to save a buck, I can only add my fervent “amen”. This was all started, unfortunately, but my erstwhile employer when they accepted stock warrants in exchange for making seats available to then brand new PriceLine.com. (Delta made a couple of million bucks and started the slide toward bankruptcy) The move toward total airline fare transparency was thus launched. As websites proliferated listing service between city pairs in the order of increasing fare, the travel agency business crashed, and the public became able for the first time to view all fares themselves. I had occasion during meetings with airline execs to see definitive proof that a fare increase as small as $5 would significantly affect market share on a route. Its a good thing that the public is willing to accept any level of service without complaint …. because it is their cheap ticket obsession that has resulted in the crashing decline of airline service in the US. They’re getting what they’re willing to pay for.

Rob, I can’t believe you stooped so low as to correct David on the pronunciation of “aviation” …. but, as long as you did, I’ll join in the fun and inform Dan that the term “N-number” is stated just as it reads. No one, ever, substitutes the phonetic alphabet’s “November” for the “N” in that term to say “November number”. Sorry, Dan …. couldn’t resist.

Great show, guys.

Thanks

Kim

Thought you might enjoy the radial ceiling fan. For more radial engine gadgets see:

http://radialclassics.com/products.html

The Whirlwind

The “Whirlwind” Ceiling Fan For several years we were asked by customers why we had not yet built a radial engine ceiling fan. In response to these requests, we are pleased to announce the latest addition to our line of Golden Age creations: The “Whirlwind” ceiling fan. By again reducing weight as much as possible we have constructed a ceiling fan weighing 120 lbs that still shows the attention to cosmetic minute detail as our other pieces. The ceiling fan can be created from the Continental, Lycoming, or Jacobs radial aircraft engines.

(135 lbs) $5,200.00

Wonder how much you have to reinforce the ceiling?

Max, Great show with Paul!!! I am really
liking the 4host format!!
fyi – regarding the emirates 340 bulkhead fix..

There was an episode on “World’s Toughest Fixes” on National Geographic channel on replacing the pressure bulkhead of a B-763ER.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/worlds-toughest-fixes/3341/Overview

keep up the good work
pat

But seriously, Great post, I will return for more!!

It would have been better if the airlines had gotten out ahead of this so they could control it and avoid all the outside “help.” Even when it’s almost never a real problem. Regulate thyself or be regulated by others!

Guys,

I was calmly enjoying the podcast until the subject of the new DOT rules regarding “stranded passengers” came up for discussion. This is a perfect example of a solution searching for a problem. Knowing that a delay in excess of 3:00 had never happened to me in my 30+ years of operating out of the world’s busiest airport (ATL), I went looking for some relevant statistics. The latest data available show that ATL, in July 09, had 38,259 flights. Of these, 2 had such a delay. System wide in July, 09, Delta had 37,145 flights, and 18 delays over 3:00. What is the point of the DOT getting involved? For once, I agree with my former employer when it says that the upshot will be many more complaints about canceled flights than about the excessive delays. Assuming the lavs and air conditioning are working, in my view, there will 20 – 30 passengers who desire that the flight to continue moving toward takeoff for every 1 passenger who wishes to be taken back to the gate to deplane.

I would pay to be in the ATL tower when/if a large number of such delays developed for outbound flights (wx stops, etc). Since the inbound flights continue to arrive at a steady rate, the gates tend to be filled all the time. Even on a normal day, an inbound often must wait for the outbound to clear the gate before pulling in to deplane. Once significant delays develop on the outbound taxi ways, then the airline will cope by holding the not-yet-pushed aircraft in their gates. Result? There will be no empty gates for the “over 3:00″ flight to return to in order to let the passengers deplane. Gridlock won’t even begin to describe it.

On a far more pleasant note, I had a beautiful trip in the Citation on the Sunday after Christmas. Blue skies, sparkling white snow for the pickup at JYO, and then a balmy drop off at SSI. All was right with the world and thoughts of congested taxi ways at ATL were furthest from my mind.

Kim

sure I’ll join in anytime, and airliners dot net is certainly not something to aspire to to be honest – that’s just a single style of shooting – we call them DSO shot (dirty side-ons)

I have been checking out your website, and I’m blown away by the quality of the pictures. Awesome.

When Max isn’t paying attention, we’ll have to “borrow” you for an episode of an Aussie based aviation podcast. We’re planning an aviation photography show in 2010 to cater for frustrated souls such as myself who can never get their pictures accepted by airliners.net these days!

I do enjoy your segment BTW

Who was that guy, anyway??

http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/Airliner_Repair_247.html

I think you are going to enjoy this NASA link: http://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/aero/

You will need a FLASH player installed. If you don’t have a FLASH player installed the site will prompt you to install one and provide a link. Once the page loads, click on the aircraft picture for details and pictures.

[This features photos, videos, and descriptions of historically interesting aircraft.]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE1/history/20091215/1810Z/KPAE/KBFI

Episode 76:

Ms. Gilligan of the FAA, “We do believe the crew has come to work prepared for the schedule they are undertaking.”

Without regard the the “nap or not” question, there could not be a statement on the subject of pilot fatigue that shows a greater lack of understanding and/or common sense on the part of the FAA.

If a crew is signing in to work at 8 AM and releases 12 – 14 hours later, then of course they are expected to be prepared for their schedule. But what about the east coast based crew that arrives to layover in LAX at 2 PM. Eight hours later, they are back on the crew bus headed down the Pacific highway to sign in for a 10 PM departure for ATL …. a 5:00 flight that will put them on approach at 6 AM at the worlds busiest airport.

This crew has had no opportunity to adjust their diurnal cycles …. if that is even possible in the short term. They were expected to get their 8 hours sleep immediately upon arrival at the hotel in mid afternoon …. leaving no time for meals, showers, etc. (many may not realize that the FAA minimum 8 hours rest in 24 hours begins and ends at the airport …. and, allowing for transportation, meals, etc, often leaves only 5-6 for actual sleep …. assuming one can just drop off to sleep on command). If this were the LAX-EWR flight, then they could be faced with a possible 2 hour drive in morning rush hour traffic over to the JFK Holiday Inn for layover …. and the time on the highway would come out of their 8 hour legal rest break. Only in contract negotiations in 2001 did the Delta pilots, for example, achieve the right to insist upon 8 hours “behind the hotel door”.

So, when this crew signs in, are they “prepared for the schedule they are undertaking”? How could they be? They are completely reversing their diurnal cycle with no lead time. For the next 5 hours, they will drone along in a mostly dark, quiet cockpit …. fighting to stay alert and hoping an F/A will come up to break the monotony. Radio calls that time of night are few and far between ….. and, as everyone knows, “the computer is flying the airplane”. I can tell you from personal experience that the grind can be difficult and fighting drowsiness a real battle …. not worthy of the jokes that were made on the lines of “I don’t get to nap on my job”.

As for international crews, Dan had it partially correct. The test for relief pilot or not is not simply whether the flight is trans-oceanic. The only thing that matters is whether or not the scheduled flight time exceeds 8 hours. Therefore, certain European cities on the western edge of the continent can be served by 2-pilot crews out of JFK or BOS. That means 8 hours in the dark, with very little relief from the tedium of an Atlantic crossing. Body time is approximately 11 PM to 7 AM, with arrival at the Euro destination during the morning rush. These crews do typically, as Dan suggested, get 24 hours for layover. That is dictated by the frequency of service, however …. not by the benevolence of the airline. That 24 hours also satisfies the legal requirement for 24 off every 7 days, and allows the airline to schedule pilots for these trips back to back.

Kim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pearse

http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/pearse1.html

Cheers,

Grant

OK David, that was definitely the sound of a rather heavy gauntlet being thrown to the floor. If you’re going to talk about First Flights and ignore location, then those down home bicycle boys are right out of the picture ‘cos Richard Pearse first flew in New Zealand some 9 months before they did.

Sadly, he didn’t get the official verification of the event and neither did he continue on with development as the demand wasn’t quite there like it was for the Wrights.

Either way, the South Island of New Zealand is *way* closer to Australia than the USA, so Richard wins for me

Anyhow, this still isn’t resolving the issue of NSW vs VIC here down under. David & I have been emailing with John M (an aviation history guy living down here in Melbourne) and we’ll see how it all pans out

Cheers,

Grant

Here is a interview on the nwa incident..
http://www.maxtrescott.com/max_trescott_on_general_a/2009/11/northwest-airlines-flight-188-pilot-explains-how-plane-overshot-minneapolis.html#more

Keep up the great work.. The show gets better all the time.. I do
miss court and dan.

http://atcsdave.blogspot.com

Rob mentioned the apparently paradoxical airline practice of reducing fares below break-even in an attempt to defend market share. Certainly they do, and they often do it to a suicidal extent. I did learn, however (during my time negotiating a pilot contract), that in some rare instances this practice can make sense in the short term. An airline like the one where I spent my career has a “critical mass” market share in the hubs that it dominates. Once it achieves a market share equal to or greater than this critical mass number, then profit per seat mile becomes a significantly larger portion of revenue per seat mile in and out of this hub. This is due to pricing power being increased once this magic market share is attained. (pricing power, of course, is what has been lost in the past 20 years due to internet fare transparency).

Additionally, a large airline …. especially one with labor contracts …. is not capable of economically responding to significant swings in the utilization of all the parts that make up its system: aircraft can’t simply be parked; employees cannot simply be laid off; gate and hangar leases continue unabated. If an airline takes action to contract and realize significant cost reductions in these areas, there will generally be short term cost increases, and it will miss the next upturn.

Finally, the time at which the ridiculously low fare was made available to the public has a lot to do with determining whether or not it makes economic sense. An airline seat is like a rapidly ripening banana in the produce department of your grocery. Once that big Boeing pushes back from the gate, all empty seats are spoiled assets, with no residual value. So, any of those ATL-LAX seats that were filled for $100 each in the day or so prior to departure represent cash flow that the airline would have permanently forfeited otherwise. The trick, of course, is predicting seat demand and adjusting fare increases/decreases accordingly as departure nears. In the last couple of decades, the sought after stars of the industry have been the revenue management experts, who, along with their computer algorithms, can most accurately predict demand and maximize total the total revenue of each departure.

**********

On Joshua’s airport, KGBF …. have been there, and find it to be a great stop. Nice folks, good service and a classic FBO crew car with no brakes. There is an old country store near the college that has great hamburgers.

Thanks for the entertainment and info,

Kim

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6943308.ece

Ever wonder how solar airplanes would do in IFR? Any volunteers to fly this 5 days at a time around the world (@35mph?)

Just letting you know that you have a listener in the caribbean! and I have been listening since episode 41 when you had flightblogger(Jon Ostrower) on. Anyways about your co-hosts.. I kinda feel sorry for Dan, he always gets picked on by that Rob guy, but iI have to admit its still funny.

Max

Aloha Im sending this from POGG my 5th trip to Maui this year haha guys. Well anyways I have a rant on Dan. Sorry Dan why do you fly United if you Hate United

Hi Guys,

I was just getting caught up on listening to Airplane Geek episode, so I just listened to episode 68 and wanted to let you know there is an airplane geekette listening weekly to your podcast (although I’m married, so I can’t be Dan’s geekette!) It seems like you have a lot of female guests, but not many female listeners writing in, so I thought I would try to write in and start a trend with the lady geeks out there.

I enjoy the podcast and can’t wait to get the latest episode each week. I especially like hearing from Court again with the whiskey tango foxtrots.

I also saw this article today and thought you might be interested in it. Click http://www.thestar.com/business/article/728876–air-canada-to-offer-in-flight-access-to-the-internet.

Keep up the good work!

Sue (Airplane Geekette #1)
Toronto

Also, can someone please Mr. Vanderhoof how to pronounce Aviation? The “A” in Aviation is not pronounce like the “A” in Cab. It is pronounced like the “A” in Bay.

Lastly, Dan’s interviews are great. Keep it up.

To find the ppt online, Google GatheringofMustangsandLegends2007.pps. Here’s one source:

http://www.esnips.com/doc/130b975f-ff78-4f02-8e82-85b4ab52f18f/GatheringofMustangsandLegends2007.

I’d be curious what people think.

Kim also has an interesting history. This is from his sig:

Ex: Navy pilot / CFI & FBO whipping boy / Beech 18 freight dog / airline pilot
Current: 135 and corporate pilot

How cool is that? Kim responded to my email back to him, in part, with this:

“…I have come to the Airplane Geeks podcast late, having discovered it through Rob’s recent mention at Jet Whine. I downloaded all the episodes and sampled through the earlier ones until getting on schedule a couple of weeks ago. A podcast of pilots talking airplanes is a much better way to spend hotel time than watching TV.

“Having been in aviation all of my adult life, I have come to enjoy the rare times when one can find informed and fresh discussion on the subject. If I continue to email in comments, I hope you will accept them as just my in absentia participation …. and not as criticism or evidence of a know-it-all attitude on my part.”

I think we have great listeners: Mike, Kim, and a lot of others with diverse interests, knowledge, and perspectives. We need an episode where all the guests are listeners. I’ll have to figure out how to do that.

As promised here are pictures of that “CAR” http://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e4/F117Lover/Roadable/

If Kim, wants all the “correct facts” maybe other internet sources would be more his cup of tea, such as Government Agency Websites… yawn!

Now, back to the fun.

Guys,

I am always about a week or so behind in the podcast, so I just heard #71 today, and would like to offer a little info, albeit tardy, on a couple of the issues you alluded to:

Dan’s shock and awe at the fact that one aircraft can fly under the banner of two different airlines in the same day: this is nothing new in the industry. At least as far back as the 60’s, Delta and PanAm ran just such an interchange. PanAm crews flew a DC-8 from Heathrow to IAD. where Delta crews …. pilots and F/As, took over and flew the plane on to MSY and/or HUB. A PanAm flight number for the ocean crossing and a Delta one for the domestic portion. Later, Braniff did the same thing with a British Airways Concorde, taking it over at IAD and flying it subsonic to DFW.

On the NWA pilot debacle: Someone (Rob?) tossed out a comment to the effect that they were “already fired”. That is not the case. There will be due process that will run its course for some months before the case is taken to a neutral arbitrator. They will, however, probably be suspended without pay for most of that time.

Rob commented that defending the pilots on all charges is ALPA’s greatest strength or weakness, depending upon whom one asks. Actually, ALPA …. or any similar union, has no choice. They are legally compelled to defend every member, no matter how grievous his offenses might be. It is Federal law. If you consider it for a moment, no one would want to have the strength of a defense depend upon the optics of the perceived wrong doing. Everyone gets an enthusiastic defense if they so desire it …. or the National Mediation Board would want to know why.

There was speculation on ALPA basing part of the defense on the NASA ASRS Program. You got the wrong acronym. It is the internal ASAP (Aviation Safety Action Program) that is at issue. This is a contractually defined program that offers immunity to pilots who self report a safety related incident, if that self report is the sole source of information to the company. Such a pilot cannot be disciplined by the company. Obviously, in this case the pilots were not the sole source informing the company that the overflight took place. It seems the whole world was watching …. and commenting.

On #72:

I enjoy your guests …. but it can be frustrating when the guest is openly (and incorrectly) speculating on issues that should come under their field of expertise. Heather Poole, a working (apparently union member) F/A should have been informed (or passed on commenting) as to what the AA “mock strike” was all about. It is just another name for informational picketing, an exercise in revving up the troops. Additionally, she is a little behind the times in commenting that the “Delta F/As have always been happy”.

She was clearly out of her field when she kept insisting that “there are no little bumps” when the subject of seat belt mounted air bags came up. I’m surprised that Rob, a Cirrus pilot instructor, did not know that the airbags in the Cirrus harness are triggered by horizontal g forces, not vertical ones and are certainly not intended for or triggered by hard landings …. unless its hard enough to qualify as an accident.

A casual check of the NTSB accident database (or a glance at the recap in any Flying magazine) will reveal that many light plane accidents involve injury as opposed to death. I fly often with a pilot who did a night dead stick into the trees with a Cessna single. Typically, after the tail caught in the tree tops, the plane pivoted nose down and hit the ground that way. His injuries included loss of teeth, and only a fluke of bending metal kept him from taking the yoke in the chest. Both types of injury would surely have been lessened by an airbag deploying in front of him.

Please don’t take this list of comments as an indication that I don’t enjoy the show. I really do. However, there are times when it is risky to drift into speculation (no matter how funny or light hearted) when a significant portion of your audience is probably expert in the subject being discussed. You KNOW every pilot is an expert at something.

Well done.

NBAA Speaking Up on Talk of Cockpit PC Ban

NBAA is taking a proactive approach to the “possibility of legislation that would restrict laptops, electronic flight bags (EFBs), cellphones and other electronic devices in aircraft cockpits,” association vice president of safety, security and regulation Doug Carr said yesterday. On Tuesday, Senate aviation subcommittee chairman Byron Dorgan (D-N.D.) announced he planned to introduce legislation that would “prohibit pilots from using laptops and other personal devices during flight” as a result of the incident in which two pilots of Northwest Flight 188 overflew their destination, later asserting that they had been distracted by their laptops. Sen. Dorgan said he planned to exclude EFBs, but business aviation pilots are still concerned because many EFB platforms are actually tablet PCs. Additionally, the legislation could affect airborne usage of aviation applications on devices such as the iPhone. “We’re acutely aware of the critical operational and safety needs for these devices on the flight deck,” Carr said. He said that if such a proposal were offered, it would fall under the jurisdiction of the Senate Commerce Committee. “NBAA is meeting with that committee’s staff shortly to explain our concerns,” he added. “We’ll keep everyone advised on the issue following our meeting.”

Any idea if these are worth anything?

Thanx

Doc@HaleBobb.com

Hello Geeks,

Just received this photo in my e-mail and after listening to the last podcast and the “Top 10″ list I thought you all may find it funny.

Love the podcast!

[I posted the photo at http://pic.gd/2fb087. It's hysterical. Be sure to enlarge the picture to see all the detail. Max.]

Max

Very interesting…..not sure if you guys have talked about this?

http://www.terrafugia.com/

If you’re wondering who’d be using the “standing room seats” in China, don’t forget that at Chinese New Year, there is a mass exodus of Chinese who are away from family travelling to be with them. Seats like these could allow poor farming/country types to travel to see family living in the cities rather than those in the cities having to come back out to the country.

Of course, one question is “How will these seats pass the impact test?” – imagine being in these seats during turbulence or in an other-wise survivable crash (eg: Turkish Airways in Schipol, Hudson River ditching, BA 777 landing short at Heathrow, etc).

As to using these seats, what more can I say than: no way in hell will I ever use one of these! YUK!

OK – back to listening to the podcast

Cheers,

Grant

been listening for ages but have never commented. Keep it up!

dj (A Tasmanian exile in Victoria)

Hello, fellow airline geeks.

I just recently discovered your podcast and thought you might be
interested in this.

I represent the Eastern Airlines Flight 401 tribute group; a group of
crash survivors and families who were touched by the December 29, 1971 crash of Eastern Airlines flight 401 near Miami (the first crash of a
jumbo jet, which killed 101 people). As you are probably aware, this
crash gave birth to CRM training, something that is again very much in
the news given this weeks US Air airport overshoot.

We currently have two websites on the crash and efforts to erect a
memorial on the crash site, which you can visit here:
http://eastern401.googlepages.com/ and
http://ealflt401.blogspot.com/

The group, includes crash survivors Ron Infantino, stewardesses Mercy
Ruiz and Beverly Raposa as well as some of the rescue workers from
that night and aviation safety professionals. The group has recently
been sharing their stories of survival and rescue and the resulting
changes in pilot training to interested parties (US Coast Guard
station at Opa Loka, the Airliners International 2009 event held in
Orlando, etc) and I was wondering if you’d like to have some of us as
guests on your podcast?

Hi Guys a CO Express plane lands at my tiny home airport after weather at two other airports force it to dievert to KLAM here is link http://www.koat.com/news/21361507/detail.html

Sounds like I’ve heard him before….can’t quite put my finger on it though…

The WTF is pretty good, eh? We should have that guy on more often!